I thought that might get your attention. For those of you about to stone me; no, I’m not against women in leadership. Hmmm, I guess there are now another bunch of people getting ready to stone me.
No sooner had I read this on Philocrites did I then spot the news from the other side of the pond on the BBC. It seems that the Anglican Communion has its first female leader. The BBC has spread the word that Katharine Jefferts Schori has been elected as the leader of The US Episcopal Church. Women, and many men, throughout Chrisindom will be heralding a breakthrough. Another step on the road to the full acceptance of women in leadership.
The problem is I don’t think that this particular heroin is going to do too much for the cause. Female Bishops are not the only controversial cause she champions. It seems that she is also a supporter of the ordination of gay Bishops and the blessing of same-sex unions in church services. Something tells me that this small victory for female (and male) kind will end up being somewhat over shadowed.
Do you think might regret writing this one day?
I’m not sure I understand. Care to elaborate?
“Another step on the road to the full acceptance of women in leadership”? And only 2006 years later. Did god forget that he hates women and gays, or did the church make a business decision? Stone me!
But anyway, congratulations on being in the front-line of the bigoted backlash. The heterosexual male majority must be quaking in their jackboots.
Well, it lacks the certain depth of Christ’s love and that might reflect on you.
Interesting the way you put that *smile*.
Also, interesting that you are not willing to put your name to it.
I’m still not sure if you are backing me or sniping at me. Maybe I’m just being dense.
Just for the record. I’m certainly not against women in leadership. If I was my wife would shoot me as she is on the leadership team of the church we attend (which also happens to be Anglican). And I’m sure God doesn’t hate women or ‘gays’.
I agree though, the ‘church’ has mad some interesting decisions over the years.
Thanks for your comment.
Sorry anontoo, maybe you and anon are different people.
Either way, hopefully my comment will make my stance clearer.
It sometimes helps the process if people are more identifiable. Sorry for the confusing.
It’s amazing the way conservatives need a change of underwear every time progress takes a turn that they werenââ?¬â?¢t expecting.
Rob, it seems that if you were posting 30 years ago, youââ?¬â?¢d have been saying ââ?¬Å?women shouldnââ?¬â?¢t leadââ?¬Â. A few years before that and youââ?¬â?¢d having been saying that ââ?¬Å?the bibleââ?¬â?¢s on my side when it comes to the debate on people of colourââ?¬Â. Before that you would have been pro-slavery and before that you would have personally thrown Galileo out for that ââ?¬Å?earth is roundââ?¬Â nonsense.
At each of those points people were sure the ââ?¬Å?compromisesââ?¬Â would undermine the foundations of the church. Conservatives sounded off and upset a lot of people. Oh look, the Kingdomââ?¬â?¢s still here without black people having to ride at the back of the bus…
If you want to get excited about something that may very well bring about the end of the world, try campaigning about the arms trade.
(just to aid differentiation of the ââ?¬Å?anonââ?¬Â postings, Iââ?¬â?¢ll be posting with anondif now)
Again, I appreciate your comment although I’m not entirely sure how you came to this opinion of me.
Maybe it was the slightly sarcastic tone of the original post. Sometimes my sense of humor gets the better of me.
As a random question; why do you feel you need to be anon?
yeah, you’re getting very confused here as I’ve only made one other post on this thread.
I’ve got some idea of your opinion because I’ve read your posts. I may not be a litterary genius, but I can spot Conservative Christianity values without too much work.
Blimey, you make it sound like everyother message board on the web has social security numbers by the names of the contributers! I’m quite happy to remain in the anonymous as is prevents my comments being prejudiced by comparing them to comments I make on other sites. I also wouldn’t want the internet version of a crowd with pitch forks and burning torches… I’ve also posted on the thread about dreams where I made a case for practical actions in justice as an important part of underpinning and working out salvation.
And who knows if you’re the Rob Borley who works for an internet company or the one who’s friends were hit by a car outside Pizza Hut in Chippenham? Probably the former acording to Google.
Anyway, why not learn from history and become a reformer?
*smile*
Am i being a bit backward here, or are we in a society where equality and diversity mean that there are those who ‘cherry pick’ the Bible to find the teachings and areas which ‘fit’ 21st century thinking? For example, 1 Timothy speaks of women not being permitted to teach or have authority over men. Now, do we just ignore teaching like that because it doesn’t fit, or do we encourage mature, grown up discussion on what it is all about?
I’m not saying i want to join the bigot backlash, as it appears to be called, but i do want to be able to approach the Bible and apply Gods word to my life, not as it suits me but as it suits Him.
Dan, its option 1. We ignore it. Final answer.
Well Dan, I\’ve heard that idea before, and the people who promote it are usualy the best at cherrypicking. If you\’re not up for women in authority, I take it that you also insist on them covering their heads? And how are you getting on with that early church model of sharing from one purse and having everything in common?
Anondif,
I can see your reasoning for your comments. The difference between the old and new testament does create difficulties and leads many, including I am sure, many of us on this site, to see Christianity as hypocritical to some degree.
I myself can see that reforms in the ‘Church’ over the years, despite biblical teachings that say the opposite, leads to difficulty when trying to deal with issues such as women in leadership and homosexual priests.
Do we take the bible exaclty as it says it, change it to fit what we want it to say, or reword it to allow modern interpretation? I think a little common sense in all these areas and alot of prayer might help us all.
The challenge for me as a follower of Christ is to assess the current goings on in this messed up world from his point of view, with his attitude of love.
Would Jesus be pleased that people are trying to follow him, despite our own short comings? Or would he condem and blame? Is it about the sin or the person’s heart?
…and your point is?
Anondif, i’m not suggesting i’m not up for women in leadership or anything else you suggested. What i was trying to say is that it seems slightly strange that we live in a society which appears to see fit to pick the most relevant parts of the Bible to live by in the 21st century, when the entire foundation of what we live by as Christians has its foundation in God breathed scripture.
Yes, there are difficulties in interpreting scripture, and i’m sure you’re going to put the chicken/egg argument to me. However, i agree with Felix, I want to be a man who is living out Gods word in my life and living to carry out the great commission He has aked of me. To tell the truth, the first priority in my life is to try and show the love of Jesus in this messed up world, not to get drawn into arguments about what is relevant or not. The other point i was making is that, yes, there are areas of controversy and dissension, but aren’t we responsible for making sure we’re having mature, grown up and constructive exchanges rather than stuff like “it’s Option 1…we ignore it…final answer”.
Blessings
Blessings indeed Dan….
I feel that you�re asking me to be broadminded only in the context of conservative Christianity. Well, I�m not going to do that as I don�t agree with your ecclesiology or dogma.
Lets recap again. Conservative Christianity would be that organisation that wasn’t interested in giving black people equality. The main arguments for keeping black people oppressed were that it was biblical and society benefited because of that moral stance. How is your situation different? Is history about to repeat on you?
Did you know that people of other sexual orientation are threatened by your attitude? Ever walked home late at night in an area that made you feel unsafe? Well, imagine if you had that feeling every time you walked into a church. Even by the dubious standard of “love the sinner, hate the sin” you’re creating a climate that cannot be described as Godly.
The charismatic church is loosing a fight in society. It’s given up scholarly effort in favour of a cannon of literature that’s self-referential and self-serving. I can only hope you will consider what the bible has to say on wisdom. I encourage you to broaden your intellectual horizons before your homophobia stands out as being as unacceptable to society as slavery and wife-beating. (Lets not forget that itââ?¬â?¢s already illegal to discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation.)
Please consider how many Godly people have been sidelined by their attitudes to issues like this. Please consider the salvation of gay people who might have followed the prompting of the Holly Spirit and gone into your church only to be emotionally smashed upon hearing an attitude that rejects a central element of who they are.
I�m very open to hearing reasoning on this matter, but lets get past biblical cherry-picking. How can you have an inclusive church that represents Jesus if you�re going to throw out the queers?
The answer is still number one.
Anondif,
Its rather rereshing having your opinions on these matters! Hope you stick around to challenge us on other topics. Your opinions make me think about things that I ahve not really thought about for myself.
Just wondering if you have any books that you would recommend that you agree with in regard to women in leadership and homosexuality?
I’d like to understand a little more of where you’re coming from, rather than just feeling intellectually inferior
To be honest Anondif (if that is your real name
) I wouldn’t place myself in any kind of ‘sphere’ of Christianity, and if it sounded as though i was positioning myself, then sorry for the misunderstanding. I don’t have an ecclesiology, i only know what it means because i just looked it up. If not understanding all these long words excludes me, then fair enough. But i do object to being labelled, so if we could avoid it, that’d be great.
For me, the challenge appears to be just coming back to finding the heart that Jesus had for people and bringing it to our families, workplaces, neighbourhoods and wherever else needs to hear it. If it really is any more complicated than that, then i’m all ears. But isn’t there a danger (and i am globalising, here) that the more time is spent challenging each other, our eyes are off the ball.
If i am naive, then fine, i’ll be naive. But i do know this…i have no homophobia in my heart, i’m not going to ‘throw out the queers’, i don’t have a ‘Conservative Christianity’, and i certainly don’t believe in excluding anyone. If you had the slightest idea of who i am, then you’d know that.
But please, do stick around and let us know exactly where you are coming from, and i do genuinely mean it when i leave a good word.
Can’t say I’ve read a huge amount on this matter, a lot comes from the first-hand experience I have of christian frinds coming out. Having Christian friends who are out has put some serious divisions in my social networks, I have to think carefuly before I invite people I know to go for a pint.
It’s also interesting to hear people talking from an anti-gay viewpoint in church and then looking at the way the church divides. Those people who feel they are “right-on” turning to Lev 18:22 and a lot of other people sitting tight and praying they can remain gracious.
I’ll ask around for some specific reading, but here are some ideas off the top of my head…
If you wanted to get a wider cultural perspective, you could probably consider getting “Foucault for Beginners” from amazon, it’s one of a series of books that I’ve found to be a good starting point in the past.
With respect to cherry picking, I’m reading “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart D. Ehrman. I think the Bible is the most important book ever written and I’m inclined to think we should study it with the best analytical techniques available for the most complete understanding. In the introduction the author describes an interesting journey from discovering Christ into a pasion for the bible that is now his life’s work (and the people who discouraged him on the grounds that he was “turning liberal”).