Wes suggests that there are four questions we need to ask ourselves when we reach for our wallets.
- How does this business treat its employees?
- What is this business� impact on our local economy?
- What is this business� impact on the global economy?
- What is this business� impact on the environment?
These are four very noble and valid questions but I think the fundamental issue behind how we view our finances has been overlooked.
Firstly, lets be clear, money is neutral. It is not good, it is not evil. For those out there that misquote the famous bible verses; money is not the root of all evil. “The love of money is the root of all kinds evil” So the issue with money is what it is used for and how you view it, not money itself.
Secondly, you are not more spiritual if you are poor. Many believe (as was looked at briefly in our study of Daniel 2) that if you have money then you should give it all away. This is not the case, we are called to be good stewards of what we have. If we have nothing how can we engage in the spiritual discipline of stewardship and the worshipful act of giving (see The Spirit of the Disciplines by Dallas Willard).
Thirdly, prosperity teaching is nonsense. God doesn’t give money to the more ‘spiritual’. I don’t even know where to begin with that one so I’ll make that sweeping statement and leave it there.
With that out of the way, lets look at what I think is the key to this issue. I touched on it in point two above. The idea of stewardship; what we have is not our own, we are simply looking after it. Yes, I did say that. We own nothing, everything on this earth is Gods, and we are looking after it.
There are all sorts of interesting paths this leads us down. Looking at how the use of what we have been given charge of on earth may or may not effect we are given charge of in heaven etc but for now let us stay with this point. If we view our money (as well as our possessions) as merely what we have been given to look after; to use responsibly and for Gods glory then this should radically change the way we view our spending.
Yes, this will work itself out in the four questions which Wes asked us above (amongst others) but fundamentally the issue is, as always with God, the state of our hearts. We need to understand that this money is not ours. We spend it on behalf of Christ. Would He be happy with what we are spending His money on?
Are we being a good steward?
Good questions to ask Rob.
In response; where and how do we get information that will allow us to have an informed opinion?
Found this website as a possible bit of helpful leading as to money matters and stewardship.
http://www.prestigeadvisors.com/Christian-Financial-Money-Management.htm
Unfortunately Bob, we live in a wealth culture, where what you have is just as important (if not more so) as who you are. There are a hundred and one ‘Get Rich Quick’ schemes, TV programmes designed to stoke greed, consumerism and marketing designed to make you feel more valuable, and judge yourself by what you have in life.
From what i’ve read, this attitude of ‘me, me, me, gain, gain, gain’ seems to have worked it’s way into Christian life as the ‘prosperity gospel’, where God will reward faith with materialism. Joyce Meyer, apparently, has moved a financial mountain right to her doorstep and is now worth millions. Good for her. As you say, it is garbage, why would financial prosperity come about as a result of faith? Why would God prosper people with the very idol which is most damaging in this world? Why would we we called to be stewards of wealth if we can just ‘ask for more’? And if prosperity teaching is the way (which it patently isn’t) then surely teachers would only have to teach it a few times, get rich and go home…but they carry on…oh, hold on…that’s greed isn’t it?!?!
I have really had to try and take hold of the idea of stewardship, because i definitely have NOT used money in the best way in the past. However, what id o understand is that we have a God whose heart is to see us living life to the full, and that means not being wasteful, being generous, grateful as a receiver and joyful as a giver…but is it that easy?
Dan,
Why are you talking about cash so much? Stewardship is so much wider.
Repeating Robs assertion that a prosperity Gospel is a corruption of the ideas around blessing doesn’t bring us closer avoiding falling into the trap. And is it an obvious trap or just another sliding scale where it’s hard to tell that you’re in a gray area.
Do you do shop for Fairtrade products? Do you buy local? Have you got an ethical bank or pension.
I can’t see the point in worrying about water under the bridge. lets talk about some solutions.
So, once again, Rob asks good questions, where and how do we get answers?
I’ll start. Did you know that the only jewlery company in the world to make a completely fairtrade wedding or engagement ring is based just down the road from you in Chichester, West Sussex. And it’s a Christian company!
How is that an answer?! I think I possibly may have an idea who you are Mr Anondif
Felix.
I don’t think we have met.
I’ll try and make this REALLY simple.
Does anyone have some helpful suggestions on how to get information to answer the 4 questions that nice Mr. Borley asked at the start of this thread?
Anon, in response to your question, i think it’s impractical to be needing to know the answers to these questions every time we go to spend our money. While i agree a level of awareness is important, i don’t think there’s any point
in getting too hung up on what effect companies are having through their conduct locally or globally. The truth is that there is a cause and effect factor in all that major companies do.
Let’s take Tesco as an example. It is fairly clear that as a major supermarket chain, Tesco seeks to get the cheapest supply possible (it’s a business, that’s what it does) at the expense of suppliers, farmers, etc, etc. Oohh, that’s wrong we all cry, jump up in arms and say we’ll never shop in Tesco again. Now if 100 people take that stance, that means Tesco gets less profits, which means Tesco has fewer jobs. Now i’m sorry if this isn’t what you were looking for, but if i have a choice between a farmer getting proper money for his produce, and someone being able to have a job and feed their family in Portsmouth, then i’m afraid i’d rather see people being able to work and look after their families.
We have the choice. I go and buy stuff in Tesco because it’s close to where i live. When i go in there on a Sunday lunchtime to buy some grub, i’m not thinking about how they treat their employees, or how Mr Corner Shop is managing, i’m thinking ‘man i’m glad people have jobs around here’, becasue at the end of the day that is more important to me. Happy working people means a happier place to live in. If that’s not good enough, then i make no apologies. If i spent my time wondering about the local and global economy every time i went into Tesco, McDonalds or BP, i’d be a mess.
The simplest suggestion i have mr anondif, is that if you want some answers, go to the source of the question. Think about the companies you want answers from, and ask them direct. Failing that, there’s the Internet, or, shock horror, you could ask employees themselves.
However, that nice Mr Borley did point out that while these are valid and noble things to think about, we need to think first about more fundamental issues like how we use our money. Consider that first. Following it, if you’re not getting the answers you want to Mr Borley’s questions (which quite frankly, could take forever), then go and seek…i hope you find
I think that some people could benefit from reading Romans 14!
Good shout Flux…a man of wisdom indeed
Sorry that I have been away from the comments here for a little while, I have found the catch up really interesting. Here are some of my thoughts, for what they are worth. I will track back through the conversation; sorry if that�s a little annoying for those who have been keeping up.
Dan, looking at some of the points you have made regarding some of the more wealthy members of the ministry it sounds to me like you are on dangerous ground. I�m not sure if you meant your attack on Joyce Meyer to sound so aggressive but really you need to be careful with this kind of idea. Just because she has made lots of money as a result of her ministry does not mean that she is in it for that reason. And because she hasn�t retired certainly doesn�t mean that greed is driving her. I know very little about her, I have herd her speak a couple of times and have been very impressed; I can certainly see why she is popular. Christian celebrity status is going to bring associated rewards. This happens to others too. A more British example would be Delirious. Very good at what they do, therefore rewards come with it. This in itself is not bad. I guess the argument would follow that more is expected of people who have been given such things but that is for another day. We need to be careful about judging people motives; which we simply cannot see.
You are, of course, completely right though Dan. We do live in a consumer society where wealth and possessions are our idols. They are expected to bring us satisfaction and happiness. They are expected to fill our ââ?¬Ë?God shaped holeââ?¬â?¢. Advertising is designed to feed this religion. And they are very good at it. But the question, which anondif (if that is indeed your real name *smile*) keeps trying to bring us back to, what practically can we do about it?
Felix, I�m sure your Romans 14 comment was intended to be provocative and while admittedly amusing I�m not sure how helpful a comment it was (*smile*) but as you brought it up it is quite a useful passage. Basically it�s suggesting that we shouldn�t force our views on our brothers and sisters around us. Such actions only bring division and not unity. However, it makes it clear that if we are to stand on a point of principle then we need to be sure about it. (verse 5). For example, our friend anondif may be convinced that it is bad to shop at Tesco where as our friend Dan is convinced its ok. Please please show some integrity. Check your motives, and then stick to your convictions.
Why is this helpful?
I believe that God will challenge each of us on issues in our lives at different stages. i.e. for some God would may like you to only listen to Christian music, for others secular music is ok. Some, God would like to abstain from alcohol, while for others a swift half is fine. I�m sure that the same is generally true here.
Let me qualify the use of the word generally. Forgive me for using you as examples; Dan clearly is happy to shop at Tesco. He believes any benefits that there may be to the local economy far out way any detriment that there may be the wider issues of ethical business practises. Anondif clearly disagrees. Can I be a little liberal and say that it is possible that you are both right. It sounds to me that anondif has been given a real burden for the ethical issues that surround the area of business practices. Namely, how what we did supports such activities. If this is the case then you need to run with it and show some integrity with it (which I�m sure you do). Dan clearly hasn�t got this burden yet. He may never get it. But if you believe that shopping at Tesco is better for the local area then shopping at the local farmers market then you need to run with that and show some integrity with it. Hopefully I�m making some sense.
However, I did use the word generally above. You may have issues in your life which, as far as God is concerned, He would rather you put your efforts into dealing with rather than the ethics of the global economy. i.e. and alcoholic needs to sort out their drinking habit before they worry about where they buy their coffee. It, quite simply, may not be a priority for you (at least at this stage in your life). God deals with us all at different rates. He treats us an individuals and this is what I believe Romans 14 is getting at. But, this is not an excuse for laziness or for blatant disregard for the stewardship call on all our lives. All of us are called to be good stewards over what we have.
Dan, if you find out that Tesco is using 12 year old boys to pack your frozen Sunday dinner then I�d suggest that that was probably a reason to not shop there; despite the fact it�s cheap, convenient, and whatever your views may be on what is holding the local economy together. You will be judged on your integrity, not anybody else�s, While you are correct that I don�t think we should necessarily spend all of our time (a resource that needs stewarding too) researching all of the products we buy we do have a responsibility (we have been given much compared to those who are being exploited, much is expected of us) to not right it off completely.
As I have hinted at previously on this site I don�t think that this is simply the case of buying fair trade (a good thing to do) and giving to charity. The issues are huge and complex and I don�t think some of the charities involved have helped their cause by over simplifying things and demonising governments and large companies, but a good amount of information is relatively easy to find. A great place to start is with Christian Aid (http://www.christian-aid.org.uk/) who have a wealth of information that I would consider trust worthy.
To finish (at last) maybe an easier place to start is with the things we spend money on, rather than where we spend it. Do we really need a fast sports car or would a family saloon do the job? Is that 4×4 must have or is a small town car clearly the real way forward? Do I need a new HD TV or will does my aging widescreen still actually do its job very well. How many shirts and pairs of shoes do I actually need? Am I tithing? Am I giving enough? You get the idea.
Man that was long. Comments welcome.
Bob, i think you were onto a really good thing there, when you talked about the fundamental issue of where our hearts are at, and whether we are in fact seeing what we have as God’s, not ours. That is simple enough, and challenging enough, to keep us chewing it over for quite a while. It was that i was trying to respond to, and i admit that i may have gone over my head trying to comment on things i don’t totally understand. My bad, don’t hold it against me.
But the other questions you put out there are dissertation sized monsters, and i think it’s extremely difficult to try and adequately answer things which are constantly stumping people. Debate after debate after debate has tried to conquer the question of how we as people can have an effective choice. Are we after choice, or are we after change?
I am challenged though not to try and find the answers when i don’t have all the evidence. Hopefully it’s not a question of integrity but of awareness.
As we are talking about money one thing that stands out for me is the huge amount of debt we are in in the UK.
Debt is something that has control over so many lives and I think it is a practical thing we can influence. In September our church is going to become a CAP centre. We will be providing our community with debt counselling. I’m really excited to see what is going to happen; really think we are going to see some lives transformed.
Check it out at http://www.capuk.org/. Just thought I’d throw a different slant on the issue in discussion.
I’m not sure I completely understand what you are trying to say Dan. However thank you for bringing us back to my initial point. What we have is God’s. What would He have us do with it?
For that, the most practical answer, indeed the only answer is to ask Him. By His spirit He will tell you.
As an aside we need to be careful however, to not use a lack of awareness as an excuse. It is a cause for many of the problems not a reason to do nothing about them.
Rich, good shout. That sounds like a really interesting project and one that is much needed. You’ll have to keep us up to date with how it works.
There’s some interesting middle ground to be claimed here, and hopefuly it will make it easier for everyone.
Rob, you’re right, I do have a burden for justice and fair trade. I could have tackled this thread with a whole bunch of information. However, telling people how wrong they are never really seems to work. I was hopping that by drawing the focus onto the initial questions, people could go and find out for themselves.
Dan, seems like I didn’t need to load you with information and you still came up with one of the most common excuse I’ve heard for why you can’t engage with trade justice issues.
Dan, you’re right to think that feeling guilty is not a good place to be as a Christian. The bible talks at length about how we can become a victim of Satan by listening to his accusations. We should be responding to the Holy Spirit when we change our lives to make them more Godly.
There are plenty of resources out there. Tom Sine has been writing on these issues for years. Ruth Valerio’s book “L is for Lifestyle” is a more modern take on similar topics.
The important thing is to do something. There’s a quote attributed to Edmund Burke that goes “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” So, do something! If you change your lifestyle by 5% for 10 years, you will probably find the change easier, and more beneficial. If you try to change 50% of your life tomorrow, you’ll probably have a nervous breakdown! Faith is, after all, a journey of development.
The questions and issues are neverending. I saw the cover of a CD where the band showed how they were linked to through their record lable to big pharma, arms dealers and industrial poluters. I don’t think it’s possible to make your life 100% clean, but as western consumers, we can have a helpful awareness and an enquiring mind that will help us be Godly stewards of what we recieve.
I think the reason I get defensive about this issue is because I know that you are right! I think lots of people don’t want to made to feel guilty about their decisions :s
As a Christian I want to be following Jesus and his teachings, and despite all his words on equality and selflessness, I still want all the stuff that everyone else is striving for.
You are right that it is hard to draw the line on being ‘clean’, e.g do I save some money to buy a new guitar pedal, or do I save my money to give it to a people who need it mroe than me? How selfless can we be without living totally for others? Can I justify what I am spending my money on?
Tough badgers indeed….
You’re right, for the first timer, it’s a big subject. The Ruth Valerio book is an easy read and good starting point.
You should be able to make changes that don’t have a massive ecconomic impact to yourself, but realy help get the justice ball rolling.
Plus if there are enough people in your community doing these things, you can band together and start a purchasing co-opperative. …and that could be used to promote your faith to other people who want the service of the co-opperative.