At a recent cell group meeting the subject of societal sin came up (I can’t remember the exact title it was given but that will do). Basically it’s the idea that there are things which are wrong with the world that are no longer within the control of a particular individual but are actually now inherently wrong with system as a whole. Things like the arms trade, world poverty, the sex industry, trade justice, etc all fit into this category.
It was suggested that for a complete view of the Gospel to be considered then we must be actively, as interested (for want of a better term), in helping to solve such problems as we are in our own personal relationships with God; our own personal holiness if you will.
Now, I realize I’m running the risk of being labeled a conservative here but I think I disagreed. I even suggested that it is possible that, for all of the good that Christian involvement in such things can and does bring, this whole area is something of a diversionary tactic used by Satan that we need to be aware of.
I’m not suggesting for a moment that these things are bad. If you are a regular reader here then you will know by now that this is not my feeling but I cannot agree that they deserve equal weighting in our priorities list as our personal walk with God. Let me try and explain why.
While I do not believe the two to be mutual exclusive it is not guaranteed that with one you automatically get the other. For example, and healthy relationship with God will lead you to seek to helps others (Iââ?¬â?¢m trying to break this into its simplest form). As James puts it “faith without deeds is dead”. If you have a true, living, vibrate relationship with Jesus Christ, then you will have the deeds to match (what shape that takes will be dependant on the individual of course). However, it does not follow the other way around. If you have lots of good deeds then faith does not follow.
This is my fear with the kind of statement that prompted this discussion. If you say that personal holiness and social holiness are actually in a 50/50 partnership then in reality you must start with one of them. I guess in an ideal world you would be able to do both at once, focusing equal attention on both but in reality this is not going to happen. If you start with the personal holiness option and develop your relationship then the deeds will naturally follow. If you start with the deeds then you end up doing a lot great things, and help a lot of people but you will not find God.
This is where the deception comes in. Social justice etc is a growing “fashion trend”. It’s cool to be active. But if we focus all our attention on such things then God need not have a part. Satan is happy if with perform lots of good deeds because in the end we may never find the reason why.
Good deeds follow a vibrant faith. A vibrant faith does not follow good deeds. All those involved in such things, keep up the great work. But do not fall into the trap of forgetting the reason why. Your personal relationship with God needs to be the number one focus in your life. From that, everything else will follow.
“Faith without works is dead” and other Kingdom living verses would seem to suggest that you can indeed develop “both simultaneously”, as you put it. Although, I would suggest that you’re taking a dualistic approach in viewing “social justice” as secular…good but secular, and “personal spiritual growth” as sacred and therefore seperate and on a higher plane than good works. I agree with you that there is a danger that we could start focusing too much on helping others and take the Gospel out of the equation but I would posit that the Gospel is not the Gospel without loving others and loving others without the Gospel is not the Gospel. So perhaps the key is not to put one “first” but rather to keep the focus on neither, but on God and obedience to His Spirit.
Dag namn it. I wasn’t going to post on this blogââ?¬Â¦but here I am!
Just to clarify your position then Rob, What *is* personal holiness exactly? I mean the old testament has some very strong things to say on what it means to follow God (The famous verse being Micha 6:8 I guess)
I agree that action should be borne out of a love of God. But I also think that action is a very important part of *how* we love God.
vibrate or vibrant>>????
got to be honest…. conservative is not a label that comes to mind!
Chef, good spot.. I’ve edited the post, any closer to that label now? *smile*
Makeesha and Kev welcome to threedays (Kev, I knew I’d suck you in eventually) thanks for your comments. I’ll try and clear my position up.
It’s probably easier to start with Kev; the Micha passage is a great example of where I think we need to make sure our priorities align. To paraphrase, “God has shown us that He requires us to live for justice, love mercy, and walk humbly before him”
Great, how can He ask us to do any of those things if we do not know Him? If we do not have a relationship with God then such requests cannot happen and therefore cannot apply. Verses like these are assuming that we are already in a position of developing relationship with God.
I don’t think faith and works (again stripping it down to its simplest form) are separate; although I can see how you might have picked that up. The sacred secular divide doesn’t exist but it is a lie that has pervade the church for some time.
I’m simply saying that when somebody gets to know Jesus, a relationship follows and this will lead them to good works. Because “faith without works is dead”. But if somebody does good deeds (which many people who do not know God do very successfully) it does not follow that they will come into relationship. If fact it may be actually harder for them to do so. They are, after all, ââ?¬Ë?good peopleââ?¬â?¢, why do they need Christ?
Does that clarify my position, or am I just gibbering?
Okay, so what your really worried about is a church full of people that busy themselves up with caring about the same sort of injustices that God cares about *without* having a motivation that comes through faith?
I understand that. I don’t believe its happening (and who am I to judge anybodies faith anyway?), but i get where your coming from. I don’t think i understand phrases like “a diversionary tactic used by Satan”…and “a deception”. They seem a little unhelpful.
I guess my personal view is that its far more likely that God, not Satan, would be found in the thick of any movement against oppression and injustice. Where will his church be found? That’s another question i guess.
“The web is fast becoming clogged up with blogs; the verbal diarrhoea of the undereducated and banal.
Blogs are anoraks who couldn’t get published any other way”
Janet Street-Porter
I think she may have a point!
Welcome Sonic to threedays. Your highly educated take on this discussion is greatly appreciated. *smile*
Kev, as I�m sure you will have noticed from the opening paragraph the word deception was deliberately inflammatory rather than a true representation of my views. Deception is a bad word because it suggests that the problems do not exist, which of course is nonsense. The problems are clearly very real. However, I stand by my comment that they are potentially diversionary simply because it is easy to miss the real issue. As I said previously, Satan would much rather we did lots of stuff and neglect God. We can feed all the poor we like but if that is the only front on which we are fighting then Satan will be quite happily to let us get on with it. Our fight is not against flesh and blood but again powers and principalities. Satan is quite happy to lose the battle with flesh and blood because he is not even fighting in it.
Please donââ?¬â?¢t misunderstand me, I am not saying that we shouldnââ?¬â?¢t send money, build schools, dig wells, offer food, buy fair trade tea and all the other things (both front line and background) that we can to help those in need. In fact if we do not have good works to our name then you really need to question what is going on, (I donââ?¬â?¢t believe that is being judgmental as you seem to suggest but that is for another time) but let me say again, there are plenty of people, many who think they are Christians even, who are doing all sorts of wonderful things but do not have a relationship with Jesus and when they meet Him, they will simply be told that ââ?¬Å?He does not know them.ââ?¬Â This post is more about the about us, the ââ?¬Å?do goodersââ?¬Â, being distracted into thinking that helping the poor is a substitute for a relationship with Jesus. Iââ?¬â?¢m sorry Kev if you do not believe that to be happening; I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If however such a trap does exist, letââ?¬â?¢s just make sure we donââ?¬â?¢t fall into it.
Prov 18:2
For those too lazy to look that one up…
“A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.”
Thanks
*grimace*
Oh dear Rob….
Well, as much as you seem to be trying to ignore your social conscience, I have a feeling that you’re going to have to deal with it one day.
There are people in church who think that works are a substitute for a relationship with God. There are also a large number who think that they can condemn all of creation as sinful and beyond redemption. Neither is right, but the contributors on this site tend toward the latter.
I’ve tried encouraging discussion that will help people engage with this, but to little effect. It seems that your determined conservative rants will always be the order of business here. As a cultural artefact, this is not a site of discussion and learning, itââ?¬â?¢s about signalling to others for the purposes of social cohesion in your little group. You really should think about.
ââ?¬Å?Discovering God on the Webââ?¬Â takes a lot more than just banging on about what you already know and watching the agreement pile up from friends. This project is failing as contributors like myself, Kev and Sonic are invited to discuss only to be told we are wrong and that the thesis of the thread will be untouched by any antithesis.
I hope you are able to enlighten yourself a little at a time. I think I’ve mentioned before that there are many Godly people who have been made redundant in the kingdom because they would not move into new things with God. There were probably 1000s of racists and slave traders who loved God but became irrelevant to the Kingdom because they couldnââ?¬â?¢t cope with change.
Further reading�
ââ?¬Å?Conservatives Without Conscienceââ?¬Â by John Dean
Anything on the Gnostic Heresy
Anondif, great to have you back.
I’m not sure I’ve said that anybody who has posted on hear is wrong, I’ve even entertained the delightful insights of sonic.
The phrase “agree to disagree” has come up once already in this post. Far from telling folk they are wrong.
I am sorry that you seem to have missed the point of the post and have not found your way past the title. However, I do continue to look forward to your helpful insights in future.
I have 1st hand expereince of what Rob is talking about.
Quite recently in our church there have been members of the congregation fighting for every good cause that the city can promote and even the nation can promote and urging people to be active and take part.
This came to head when these said people started shouting at and calling people who wouldnt join in every social action project that they were involved in heathen and non christian.
now i think this is the tactics the Rob was pointing at when he said the devil will use these tactics to cause diunity and not focus on our holy relationship with God, causing people to argue and judge somebodies faith on what they do and dont do is not our call as christians, but behaviour like this caused disunity and push people to the margins of the church community, this can even be said for peoples comenst on this said blog that just because you dont agree on a certain view point ther are wrong.
since when did Jesus label people as a conservative follower or liberal follower, what we should be is united in one christ, and be united in sharing the gospel, if we cant be united in the church as a body then how can we expect people to belive in the god we love and trust?
Rob,
You’re technically right, you’ve never said someoneââ?¬â?¢s opinion is wrong. You carefully compliment the people who agree with you and ignore the other points.
Blogs are now being used as an important part of reflective practice in teaching and learning. If I was grading the efforts of the contributors here, I’d say that you were failing because the comments do not reflect learning.
Blogs here show there is no taking in new theory and incorporating it into your world view. (You can be critical of these new theories) Just saying “agree to disagree” has to be the war-cry of the intellectually bankrupt and defeated conservative. You just demonstrate your disinterest in engagement.
I completely understand the point of the post and it’s an interesting subject area. I dislike people who think theââ?¬â?¢re going to inherit Bob Geldofââ?¬â?¢s throne just because they send Ã?£20 a month to Christian Aid and fill their recycling bin. You’re skating on thin moral ice when you attack a growing aspect of the fruit of the Kingdom from a point of non-engagement.
I find that my ââ?¬Å?justice actionsââ?¬Â flow smoothly and fruitfully from relationship with God. Thereââ?¬â?¢s no part of me that thinks my action forms part of my redemption. I do however note that according to the bible it reflects a healthy outworking of Faith.
There is so much ignorance around the justice issues that people are bewildered by the amount of information and recoil in shock. Sound familiar? Well, please don�t then snipe at the God inspired actions of the Faithful from warm comfort afforded to you by the conservatism of you and your friends.
John Roberts,
You’re right, there shouldn’t be any emotional blackmail in encouraging engagement with justice issues. I’m ashamed to say that I’ve succumed to the temptation to push people in the past, I’ve found that it’s wrong and only achieves the disunity you have described above.
The only issue that I’m willing to push on is that we should be swimming like fish in our culture to ensure we can communicate the Gospel. Sometimes with words, sometimes with actions. I don’t feel that sitting around patting friends on the back helps achieve this.
I find that there’s so much to omprehend that being inflexible, or encouraging divergence with comments like “agree to disagre” can’t be helping Christians re-claim any kind of intelectual authority.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
1 Corinthians 13
Rob,
You say that you dont judge and in the same breathe you say this:
“but let me say again, there are plenty of people, many who think they are Christians even, who are doing all sorts of wonderful things but do not have a relationship with Jesus and when they meet Him, they will simply be told that ââ?¬Å?He does not know them.ââ?¬Â”
I dont know how you can say that. What about Matt 25 v 34-45? I would never be so bold as to publicly allude to who does have, and who does not have, a ‘valid’ relationship with Jesus. Anyhow, this is an issue which does indeed ask lots of questions. I’m not comfortable with the ‘conservative’ label being banded about all over the place. We are all on a journey and i think we should accept that we are all coming from different starting points here.
You know, It wasn’t so long ago that i would have looked at Africa and the HIV crisis and thought – man they need to know Jesus. If they did then they would all act differently and there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place. Taken by itself, without addressing any of the deeper issues, that is just nonsense. I know that now. The thing is, sometimes we need to be Jesus and not talk Jesus. We are meant to *love* the poor. really. love them. If you tell someone you love them and do nothing then they wont feel loved. The problem with worrying about the “do gooders” is that they are the people who *are* doing something. Who does God feel more loved by? I honestly dont know, and so I will not make sweeping statements about someones ‘personal relationship’ with Christ.
Kev,
your right it does tell us that, but id like to point people to 2 Peter 1: 3-11, this passage clearly states that we must learn to love god and ourselves 1st this will then teach us patient endurance, then comes godliness, then love for other christians, then genuine love for other people, i think this scripture backs up exactly what bob has said that these actions can only come after we have a solid relationship with God not the other way round!
I find it hard to believe that people are taking reading this post with the view that Rob actually wants to attack our attempts to bring justice, love and hope to the world (and that he is a big nasty conservative Christian monster!)
From my point of view, it seems to me, that Rob is challenging those people who are jumping on the band wagon of every new wristband/concert/fundraising scheme that seems to be everywhere at the moment….. and who are perhaps missing the intimacy of a personal relationship with Jesus which cultivates real, long term, burdensome, unconditional love for others.
Anondif, I think that you are right….. but perhaps being slightly too defensive! I think this discussion was not aimed at people such as yourself. You seem to have the personal relationship vs world justice thing going on superbly and I respect that immensily. I am certainly seeking to learn and understand better ways of stewarding my money/time/resources etc.
I really hope that you don’t see the posts on this blog as backslapping and introspective, as I have always attempted to promote learning and challenge myself and others on issues that we discuss.
I don’t think I’ll try and reiterate my point anymore on this one. It seems to have been lost somewhere. Thank you for your attempts to bring clarity Felix and John
All I will say is that I agree whole heartedly that faith is not something you have, but something you do. When James says that faith without works is dead he is talking about works of love (just so we don’t get confused with the works, which are works of the law, which Paul speaks against). Faith that doesnââ?¬â?¢t result in works of love is a complete waste of time. It is dead; and ultimately so are those who have it. (see Kevââ?¬â?¢s passage link above)
Kev, I am not ignoring your comments about the judging stuff. I have had a post planned for a little while now that will bring that out so rather than side track this one anymore let�s save that discussion until then.
Anondif, if indeed our posts and comments (well specifically mine) are not making the grade and we are not sticking to subjects that you feel important then why not join us. We are launching a regular ââ?¬Å?Guest Posterââ?¬Â slot in the near future. Why not get ahead of the game and email me a post on what you think needs to be discussed here. (That invitation of course goes out to all.)
If only the Bible Study posts generated this much interest *smile*