Someone please lead us into battle….

Hey Rob, you made me laugh with this, and funnily enough I was talking about this stuff with some pastors yesterday. Two tentative comments. 1. not sure that in the current global climate that war or battle imagery is particularly satisfactory. 2. is not the real issue that we are losing or have lost the ability to lead people in congregational singing becasue our songs are so personally intimate?

Thanks Glenn, I thought that this would make you smile *smile*.

I thanks for your comments, I see your point about the battle imagery although I’m not sure it can really be avoided. We are after all into spiritual battle; sure, it’s not against flesh and blood but it is a battle all the same. I am very interested in alternatives but am weary of watering this concept down as, personally, I believe it to be very relevant to the position that the church finds itself in today.

It’s an interesting thought about losing the ability to lead congregational singing. I think that this probably does have an effect, certainly in the more modern, charismatic wing of the church. Song writers are now very personal when writing their material (which has brought a lot of great things to the church and in general has been a very positive thing) but I wonder if it’s time to look at if the balance has drifted too far. Are songs now so personal that it’s difficult for the masses to join in? Interesting point, thanks…

Some fine thoughts there Bob and Glenn. To be honest, on the aspect of ‘battle worship’, i think we need to be absolutely clear what we are coming to. I agree with you Glenn, that we need to be careful not to become too ‘battle roused’ in our worship. I use the phrase very loosely, and only for lack of a better one. However, we need to understand that the path to righteousness and the command to bring the gospel to all the nations is a struggle. It is difficult, and it takes effort and is a commitment. This effort is something which surely can be reflected in the way we praise God.

The intimacy thing is important, of course it is, but as men, we want to be more pumped than that.

The thing I reckon here is that we (i.e. the generation we are in) don’t know how to write songs that can re-address this balance. Nearly all contemporary songs are written about the kind of topics that we find don’t connect with us as men in the church (such as love and intimacy). The only difference here is that contemporary artists don’t make people sing the lyrics - so in a way, it puts less importance on them. Providing it has a good tune then we men can get on with it.

That isn’t the case in church and as such we find ourselves in this predicament. To be honest I see no easy answer - except that song writers need to break out of the mould of doing what everyone else has done and think a little for themselves - and yes, I most definately mean me :).

I think we need to be really careful however that we don’t all jump on some ‘manly song’ band-wagon. If we all decided there is a problem and only write manly grrrr Christian songs then in a few years we’ll have the exact opposite problem. The issue here is not the lack of songs that appeal to men, it is the lack of balance.

As an aside I went to the Hillsong conference a few weekends ago and quite a few of their tunes are much less about lovey dovey stuff and more about rousing the challenge of Christian life within us. The atmosphere of worship certainaly re-inforced that aswell. However, you can’t win - I read a review of one of the Hillsong United albums and they were critisiced for having ‘as much depth as a stone skimmed over a ponds surface’ - something which I don’t entirely agree with. So it seems that you’ll never please everybody…

Is there possibly too much focus on singing as our corporate worship? Would it be a bad thing to move the focus off of this?

What would alternatives be? Or is singing fundamental to church? Just thinking out laud.

I was talking to one of our worship leaders last week, and i said wouldn’t it be interesting to just do worship in the most stripped down way we can, i.e instrument free, spontaneous praise. I would imagine that throughout history, people have praised God and been blessed without the aid of music, instruments, worship leaders, CD’s, DVD’s or anything else. I don’t believe for one minute that we are in an any more blessed place now, because when we are in an attitude of worship, surely it doesn’t matter to God how we do it, as long as we do.

These words say it all for me:

I love you Lord, and i lift my voice
To worship you, oh my soul rejoice
Take joy my King, in what you hear
Let it be a sweet, sweet sound, in your ear.

Rob, I reckon that there is something fundamental about singing - it is one of the only things where we can all participate all at the same time. Fair enough we normally have someone ‘leading’ it (whether that be a trendy busted looking guitarist or Mrs Sweaty on the organ) - but everyone can participate at the same time. I have tried other forms of creative worship such as painting and other art, scripture meditation and prayer and while they are all fantastic tools, they are much more of an individual act rather than something done all together.

I think that it is not the fact that we sing that can hinder things but what we are singing that is the biggest stumbling block - as has already been said here. As a song writer, I am feeling incredibly challenged to write songs that are not only real to me, but songs that portray God in the right way. As a song writer, I have a responsibility to do this if I feel God is calling me to write songs that will move the church forward - and yes, that probably does mean less songs that will ‘lead me into the bedroom with the Lord’.

I think one way this is going to come about - and something I plan to do a lot more - is to write songs with other people. If we write them on our own, they will obviously become personal and intimate - and maybe theologically incorrect. That is crap - we need songs that inspire and focus us on God whilst at the same time be theologically bang-on.

Sounds simple doesn’t it?? If only….

Thinking about it you might be right. I’m not entirely sure if we know if the early Church did it (or if not when it became popular) but it was certainly in the Revelation to John (beings around the throne singing Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord etc). And of course the Psalms are basically songs although generally more personal rather than cooperate in nature.

This is really difficult maybe it is just a case of being fed up with “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs?

Maybe we need to think about the places where it’s culturally relevant to sing. The only one I could think of is at the football. NB: interestingly this is also a predominantly male environment)

What is it that makes it ok to sing in this context? Is this something which we can use to help us in congregational singing in a Christian setting?

Sorry to confuse, but this is actually - Marianne Matthews says:

Going back right to the start of this thread, I agree Rob that ‘todays’ worship songs aren’t very man friendly. However, as a woman, I get quite frustrated with weak, ‘nothingy’ words and sentences, particularly on the more ‘me’ focused songs we sing a lot. I really love songs that; make sense, lift God high, speak truth and are also heart felt. It’s a tough combination to get in one song- but there are songs out there that prove it is possible.

I believe God would rather hear us speak/sing out praise to Him spontaneously than settle for songs that fail to do that, just because they’re available, catchy or make us feel good.

Moving on to the other points in this thread…I agree with Gaz that sung worship is a good way to corporately give God glory. Music and singing are a timeless thing, and very much a part of our culture still. However, although I love singing to God, I know some don’t so much, so I think it’s good to encourage diversity in our worship in church. People can corporately worship by someone speaking; reading something they’ve written, poetry, something from the Bible. I hope to see more of that in our church (maybe I need to step out in that myself!).

Whenever I spend time thinking about the best ways to ‘do’ corporate worship, God always challenges me that it’s my heart and my ‘whole life worship’ that needs my attention too!

Thanks Marianne, great to have you with us. You make some good points, and I agree that corporate worship is very important. I was only having a discussion today, with your good husband, about the power of people joining together in agreement. When we join together, we carry great weight, not only in the physical but also in the spiritual realm.

But I wonder, getting back to my original point, if there is a way to do this in a less ‘arty’ fashion. Of course, God uses the arts, He is a creative God, but not all us share His passion. Actually, I’m not sure that is true, I think we are all creative, as we are the likeness of God, but maybe not all in the same way.

Certainly I know of people, mainly outside of the Church, who are not fans of singing, certainly not poetry or creative writing. They are not likely to get out a paint brush or do an inspirational dance. Reading allowed is just alien, and takes some confidence to do anyway, which most people don’t have. And it’s best to not even go near drama! *smile*

My point is, how can these folk, and I think it does affect more men than women, although, I’m sure it’s not exclusive, have any hope of joining our corporate worship, even if they did believe. Are we suggesting that being a Christian also converts you to being ‘arty’? Or is it that Christianity simply attracts the more ‘arty’ people.

I think it’s the latter. And, while it’s great for those ‘arty’ guys and girls, this surely has to be seen as totally unacceptable.

Who did Jesus attract? Were they poets, musicians, dancers, etc? Certainly some, defiantly not all.

Am I making this stuff up? If I’ve missed the boat then please tell me, but I think we have a serious problem.

How do we ‘do’ corporate worship that includes, even attracts, then non-arty (dare I say normal, average, Joe)?